Mayor Wu on the joy and challenges of being a working mom

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The following is a lightly edited transcript of the March 30 episode of the “Say More” podcast.

Shirley Leung: Welcome to “Say More” from Boston Globe Opinion. I’m Shirley Leung. This week we bring you a special episode of “Say More,” our first live show from the Globe’s inaugural Working Mothers Summit at the Newbury Hotel in Boston and sponsored by PNC Bank.

For me, being a working mom can be really hard and sometimes lonely, but to be in a room with hundreds of others who are juggling work and family was energizing. As part of the event I spoke to perhaps two of the hardest working moms in the Commonwealth: Boston Mayor Michelle Wu and Attorney General Andrea Campbell.

My conversation with Mayor Wu was a sight to behold. Her two-month-old baby was in her lap. You can actually hear Mira cooing throughout our conversation.

Also, early in our chat, you will probably notice a strong reaction from our audience when the mayor realizes the only way to keep Mira quiet is to nurse her while we talk. I gotta say I’ve hosted a lot of events, but this was a first for me and perfectly encapsulates the high wire act of working moms.

I told the mayor many of us can still remember when she was on the city council about 10 years ago, holding her son Blaise in her arms during public meetings.

Now Mira is getting the same treatment, attending a cabinet meeting, and even traveling to DC for a congressional hearing. I asked the mayor to discuss her decision to work in public with her babies.

Michelle Wu: I think this is maybe something that resonates with some in this room, too.

Some of it was an intentional, conscious decision and some of it, as is so much of the lifestyle of working parents, is just, “You’re gonna do what you have to do.” When I was on the council, there really weren’t a lot of additional options.

We were both parents working. Daycare in City Hall didn’t start until 4 or 6-months-old. In that window between, you have to figure it out and make things happen. And there had been no other example before of how to do it.

I am incredibly privileged and blessed to have the flexibility to make choices. Choices that we all need to change policies for so that every single working parent has them.

I hope that by trying to break down the silos or dividers between personal and professional, we realize how hard it is. And we can give the momentum to make those changes.

Leung: So, I was just wondering, have you gotten any pushback?

Wu: My oldest son is 10 now, and having been the first city councilor to have a baby, there was really no playbook of what to do.

In terms of other employees in City Hall, I tried to figure out what the usual situation was, such as how much time there was that any city employee would get.

And we did not have paid parental leave at all back then. It’s in some ways remarkable to remember and reflect on how much progress has happened in the last 10 years.

Certainly every day we realize how much more there is to go, but 10 years ago at the city, state, and still at the federal level, there was no guarantee of paid parental leave in our city government. So I was very proud to write that ordinance.

It was too late for myself to use it at that point, but it ensured that city workers would have the ability to finally stop building up their paid, sick, disability or medical leave in order to do something that is a basic fact of life and something that should be part of your dignified working conditions.

To this day, we have now expanded it to nearly every city employee through collective bargaining. There’s still one more contract that we’re trying to incorporate, but it means for the very first time, our teachers have guaranteed paid parental leave. Our police officers have guaranteed paid parental leave.

It ends up having a real impact on the types of leaders who are then sitting around the table making important decisions and delivering our services for the very first time. We offered childcare as part of the police academy so that new recruits could include new moms and dads who otherwise wouldn’t be able to sign up to fill the very important jobs that we need.

Leung: You yourself did not take leave this time. Just like you didn’t take leave in city council. So how do you encourage your city employees to take leave then?

Wu: I want to be clear because this has been a point of contention. I have had conversations about why and when a woman in a job has some news happen, why is the focus immediately “What is the most controversial aspect of the plan six months from now when she hasn’t decided it yet?” And then everyone weighs in.

And I understand that it’s a function of the news, but in some ways I am looking forward to the day where that is no longer news and it’s no longer, “Is she doing the right thing for herself and for a symbol of all of humanity?”

What’s riding on each and every one of our shoulders is, to quote Bella Abzug, “when a mediocre woman has access to the same opportunities that men and others routinely have access to.” When the day comes that we no longer have to be the most exceptional, the most balanced, and the most put together to count as strong leaders and full professionals in our field, that is when we will be at the point of our work of being a little bit more complete.

Being an elected official is just a unique experience. It is a privilege for sure. And it’s a job that is contradictory in some ways.

Anyone in this room who is a resident of Boston is qualified to be mayor of Boston, right?

Anyone who is a voter and resident of Boston can put their name on the ballot, collect signatures, and then run for office, and that is the beauty of our democracy. So I am perfectly interchangeable with everyone in this room or any resident of our city in that way.

Once your name is on the ballot, in some ways, at that point you really can’t be substituted for the other names that could have been there, right?

And so in this role, I’m around to make the decisions day or night, whether the family’s out of town on our one week annual vacation or any other day of the year.

And with the leave, it’s been doing the job a little bit differently, doing it much more through remote and virtual participation for the first couple weeks.

And then, I got called to Congress, did my thing, and then the next day was my six-week postpartum sign off appointment with the doctor to say I was ready to go back to work.

Leung: I remember interviewing you a month after you got elected and you wanted to stay involved in your kids’ lives. Maybe you would do school pickup, maybe be home for dinner a couple times a week.

So have you been able to do that as mayor?

Wu: For the most part.

It really ebbs and flows. Certain times of the year are a little bit crazier than others. March always is a little bit crazier, but in general, I try to do school pickup at least once or twice a week.

I try to involve the kids. The boys are 7 and 10 now, and so there’s a complicated system of planning for what days they have activities and what days I have activities. On the precious days where our time is together after school, we really make the most of that.

So it’s hectic and it’s crazy, but I hope they’re growing up with the instinctual sense that women and moms can do anything. And that boys have a role in that, too.

Leung: We have a really good question from the audience along the same lines.

So as a mom, how do you talk to your kids about not always being able to be everywhere they ask you to be?

Wu: This one is really hard because they’re also changing so quickly in their understanding. They were both born after I was already serving on the council.

Blaise was born in my very first year on the council. Cass was born in my first year serving as council president. I think they knew the word meeting before any baby should be able to speak the word. So they’ve known what it means to come around with me to a lot of things.

They know every playground in the city, and they’re used to kind of saying, “What’s on the docket this weekend? Is it a parade? Is it this or that?”

At this age though, they’re now expressing their opinions about whether they want to be part of it or not. Also for their own activities, whether they want me at this basketball game or that one.

I think maybe this room might understand, there’s always a layer of constant guilt, right? Am I doing my job to my fullest? Am I taking care of the kids to the fullest? Is it okay to leave this pile of laundry for an extra couple days, just not folded, sitting there?

It’s not always fun every minute, especially when they’re young. But I know that it gives me this unshakeable determination that we are going to make it easier for families everywhere to thrive and to have what they need. It also gives a sense of urgency.

We can’t let each family watch their kids grow up in an instant and not be delivering what they need.

Leung: Mira is only a couple months old, so this question might sound premature, but when she’s in her 20s, 30s, 40s, how do you want the world to be different or better for working moms?

Wu: In some ways she’s such a laid back and easy baby, I’m worried that means as a teenager I will have karma come back to me.

I hope first and foremost that she will have felt like she got to experience all that the world has to offer through this city, and that it was easy. I hope her classmates, friends, and everyone felt that it was taken for granted that you could be part of a family and have anything that you wanted to experience for your growth and development available to you in the city.

This is not a political event, but where do we start on what the White House will feel like and look like in 20, 30 years? She was born a week before inauguration, and so the whole pregnancy, I was expecting a different outcome for what politics would feel like right now.

And we have a lot of fighting to do to ensure that by the time she is in these seats, that sense of having to claw back what was so sacrificed for and fought for in generations past, that that will be a memory. That they will be onto the next set of battles for sure, but ones that are not so basic and intrinsic to who we are.

Leung: Mayor Wu, this has been a great conversation. I thought it was hard to nurse in my office, but no, nursing on stage… this is incredible. And Mira’s asleep now.

Thanks so much for being here with us today. Thank you, Mayor Wu, our working mom in chief.

We’ll be back with the live show on working mothers after this short break.

Next up, I’ll be sharing my conversation with Attorney General Andrea Campbell on reigning in Big Tech. Stay with us.

Leung: Welcome back to “Say More.” Andrea Campbell is the first working mom to hold the title of AG in Massachusetts, and she’s been using her power to work on something near and dear to a lot of parents taking on tech giants and the ways they target children. I ask AG Campbell why one of our biggest priorities is suing social media companies like TikTok, Meta and Instagram.

Andrea Campbell: So, a couple of reasons. One, this is an issue that everyone should care about. I think technology and emerging technology should ensure that it is not only safe, but also used responsibly. There should be some type of accountability when that is not the case.

It should be important to all of us, whether you have kids or not, because it’s going to affect this generation and the generations to come.

So I, along with several other AGs, and frankly this is probably the only area where you have Republicans and Democrats working together over 40 states, came together to file this lawsuit against TikTok and Meta and Instagram, to hold these companies accountable for the harms that they are causing to our young people via these platforms.

And what harms am I talking about? Uptick in depression, anxiety, self-harm, harm, especially for young girls. So we are looking to hold them accountable with this lawsuit. And while it’s multi-state, we’re playing a critical role through my office, but also a team that is dedicated to privacy and protection.

Also just responsible technology in all of its forms. We have a Massachusetts Youth Advisory Council, which is inaugural to the office. Never have we had a group of young people informing the work we do, even though it affects them, which I thought was really important to change that whole dynamic and to empower them.

What I want to stress is, the companies will say, “Well, it’s a young person’s responsibility, or the parent’s responsibility.”

And I say, “No, that’s BS.”

And why is that? These companies design the apps, they design the technology. Only they have the power, the ability and access to go behind the technology, to change algorithms, to change the design of those systems so that these apps are more supportive of our young people, more user-friendly, and most importantly, the accountability tools that they have, like age verification and prolonged use.

That’s not a parent’s responsibility or a young person’s responsibility. Good luck trying to fix the app from your phone, you just can’t do that.

So this is critical work that we hope everyone will follow and we’ll keep folks updated as we continue the lawsuits, which we know can take a long time, but we’re still actively working on those, even today.

Leung: This must be on some level personal for you. Your boys are five and seven. They probably don’t have their own cell phones, but they probably are familiar with technology or iPads and the allure of these apps. So talk about your own experiences motivating you.

Campbell: I am a mom of two beautiful boys, so I often say everything I do is informed by not just being AG, but also being a wife, and also being a mom and a God-fearing one.

I don’t go into the office and leave that part of my identity. And I would hope everyone in this room brings their full self into their workplace to inform everything they do.

And if you cannot do that, then you better find a new workplace because I think it’s so important to inform us of the solutions and what we prioritize. That Youth Advisory Council would not have happened if I didn’t say “I want young people informing what we do.”

We can’t be talking about social media platforms when some of us don’t even know what the newest platform is.

Leung: Besides legal action against these companies, the other tool in your toolbox is legislation. And you made headlines in January when you filed a bill that would ban cell phone use during school hours.

So what made you decide to take this approach?

Campbell: It’s the only approach. Frankly, it’s like with seat belts. For a while, people were like, “Don’t you tell me what to do with my seatbelt in my car. Excuse me. Nothing cool about putting on a seatbelt.”

And yet the government, along with public health officials and so many stakeholders, had to step up and say, “We’re doing what’s necessary to protect our people here.”

It is incumbent upon adults to do what’s necessary to protect our kids. The onus shouldn’t be on the kids.

And so some of the pushback, and I’ll say pushback in a loving way, because it’s actually been thoughtful, is about having a phone in the hands of young people if there is some public safety issue at school.

And I say, I understand that, but it’s our job to keep them safe, not for them to suddenly be public safety officials, educators, working with folks to reduce bullying or harassment that they’re seeing on their phones. That’s our job.

The legislation does three critical things. One is, it says we have to ban cell phones, not in some 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. or 8 a.m. to 3 p.m. There’s a few school districts that have policies, but we have to make it standard. And the easiest way is to say bell to bell.

When you’re in school, you should be learning. You should not be on your phone. Educators should not be the cell phone police, which we’re seeing in some school districts. This is why the Teachers Association and so many others are supporting us in this legislation. School administrators, too. And we would give resources through grants, which we’re able to do to help our school districts.

The second is mandating that school districts develop a curriculum. What are the benefits of social media? And we have heard there are some benefits: connection, networks, being able to find a job, those in our LGBTQ+ community, which frankly right now is critical that they have a network on a platform. Then there are also the downsides that I mentioned earlier. There should be an active curriculum to explain that.

And then lastly, it also pulls in our litigation from our social media companies. We’re telling social media companies we’re not waiting for a lawsuit that can take a really long time. We’re asking you through our state legislation to make changes. If all of us voice our support for The STUDY Act, to our elected representatives, it gives us an opportunity to not only push this to passage really quickly, but to then use this legislation to hold social media companies accountable for how we want them to be accountable.

So, for example, they say they have age verification. Young people can work around that if they don’t change that. Prolonged use, they say they can stop that. We wanna make sure that actually works.

TikTok in particular, the algorithm looks very different in China. If a young girl searches for something around health, beauty, you get something healthy in response, something encouraging. You can do a similar search right here on TikTok and you get completely opposite, negative, even eating disorders.

TikTok in China actually has restrictions on when and how long you can use it. Why wasn’t that introduced the same way here in this country? So we’re pushing these companies to answer some questions that parents often can’t ask on their own directly with the companies.

This really empowers you, if you engage with your elected officials on the study act to say, “What’s the status of this? I wanna voice my support.”

It will be a big help in being able to hold companies accountable while not looking to get rid of them, because we know of some of the benefits they bring.

Leung: One of the things I appreciate about your approach to holding big tech accountable.

That it sends a powerful message to parents and kids that we’re not in this fight alone. I’ll be honest, if I had more energy, maybe my kids wouldn’t be on their cell phones watching YouTube, I would be there entertaining them or doing something with them.

But I’m tired. I’m a working mom. You get it.

So, if you succeed with your lawsuits and your legislation and you are truly able to reign in technology, what does this world look like for us?

Campbell: First of all, I love the question in the frame, because I often get, “If you’re successful as AG, what would you have done? What would you have accomplished?”

I think we all think about this legacy. And I don’t frequently think about that, I have work to do. We are really busy and as you all know, we are really busy.

But I will just stress: everything is for the kids.

I grew up down the street, very poor with very little monetarily, and as many folks in this room know my story, all of my biological parents are deceased. All of my biological grandparents are deceased. I have an older brother now incarcerated. Another loved one, incarcerated. My twin brother dies while in the custody of a prison system. So there’s a list of trauma.

But what gives me such joy, and that’s my middle name so I carry that everywhere I go, and what sustains me, is my faith.

And also just being around good human beings. There is power that each of us are here for some purpose. And if mine truly is to be the AG, to work hard on your behalf, it would mean nothing that I was the first black woman if I did nothing with it, if I didn’t push the envelope in terms of what was possible and what we could get done.

And at the end of the day — what is that? It is breaking cycles of poverty, criminalization, mediocrity, whatever the cycle is you wanna break for your kids and their kids’ kids or somebody else’s kids. That’s what it’s about for me, and I know I’ve started that with my two boys, and I wanna do the same for everyone else’s kid, regardless of your demographic, where you come from.

As parents, we’re all struggling in different ways to do the best for our kids, to make sure they can thrive and prosper and reach their dreams and accomplish them. And so for me, it’s really pushing the envelope on what I can use this office for to help kids and young people to break those cycles. And that drives me every single day.

And if anything, I have to remind myself why I do the work. Because in the midst of all this noise, you can forget your “why” and you’re just going about your day looking fabulous, but you’re still like, “Where am I going?”

Look fabulous and then be like, “Okay, I’m going somewhere with some intention and some purpose.” And I never forget that.

Listen to more “Say More” episodes at globe.com/saymore and wherever you get your podcasts. If you like the show, please follow us and leave us a review. You can email us at saymore@globe.com.

Kara Mihm of the Globe staff contributed to this report.

Shirley Leung is a Business columnist. She can be reached at shirley.leung@globe.com.